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1. 1. At 10 Apr 2008 12:28, thejenson wrote:

   Dan-- I have really enjoyed this series! It has been very insightful. A few Ralph Waldo Emerson quotes came to mind when reading this: Create Your Own Path. Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. I consider that quite inspiring and have it on my office wall. I wonder if non Gen Y co-workers would find that offensive?

2. 2. At 10 Apr 2008 13:34, Scott Bradley wrote:

   Dan, Awesome post! I agree with you 100%. I wouldn't be surprised if there were people in our generation (gen-y) who have better skills than people in the corporate world who are high up on the ladder. How do you think we as a generation will be able to overcome this stereotype going forward?

3. 3. At 10 Apr 2008 13:37, Dan Schawbel wrote:

   All, I'm having this discussion in Twitter right now and the Gen-X'ers are stepping in. Amanda Chapel (A controversial pr blogger) is saying that experience outweighs value. Thoughts?

4. 4. At 10 Apr 2008 13:39, ziprz wrote:

   Dan, I'm squarely in Gen X. I definitely thought I brought more value to the table than my superiors when I was 23. I thought it was quaint when they brought in the young guns to help bring the 'old timers' (30 and 40 year olds) into the Internet Age. Ten years later, I now realize that there is tremendous value in experience. At 23 I was wrong. What I filled was a knowledge gap that the older managers could not have built while they were busy working and I was busy learning in school. The intangibles of the senior team members having been around the bend a few times was something I gave very little credence to. It is not a Gen X Gen Y thing, and it's not an ageism thing. It is experiencism. What's most important is building first-hand experience, not tenure. Once I had a bit under my belt, there were no barriers to me managing people twice my age. We all want to take the next big leap of responsibility in our career. Entrepreneurship is certainly one route. Having an entrepreneurial attitude within a company or by changing companies frequently can get you there fast as well. To have credibility you need to prove value no matter what your age. -Kris

5. 5. At 10 Apr 2008 13:40, Dan Schawbel wrote:

   Well said Kris.

6. 6. At 10 Apr 2008 13:46, Recruiting Animal wrote:

   Dan, Re pink = homosexual. Pink shirts for men came onto the market around 1965. Now, I live in Canada and we tend to think that we are generally smarter than Americans whether we are or not. But when you are still talking about pink shirts and hippies in 2008, I tend to think that you are reading authors from the 1960s. Because not many people in Toronto dress like hippies or think twice about a pink shirt on a man. What gives? Re Ageism. Hierarchies based on age and years of experience are on their way out. The trend has been growing slowly for the last 200 years and is now really moving. Ageims exists at least in part because it is assumed that a fresh grad cannot deliver the same value as a person with some experience. Does that make sense to you? It does to me. It also makes sense to assume that someone who is 21 or 18 will know more about online gaming than a 65 year old woman. The thing is to not let this reasonable assumption lead you to be resistant to any anomalies. Any marketer will tell you that you have to identify your target demographic and go where they go. That means that there are different groups of people and one of the factors in their differentiation is age. Where ageism really hurts is in discrimination against workers who are 40. They are considered to be too old. And unlike a young up and comer, ageism at their age means that they have no bright prospects to look forward to.

7. 7. At 10 Apr 2008 13:50, affiliatetip wrote:

   I toiled in the cubicles from the time I was 23 until I was 34, and found it immensely frustrating that politics and seniority often counted for more than ability and merit. After seeing my higher-ups take credit for my work one too many times, I decided I should strike out on my own. And I am sure glad I did. My work satisfaction has grown significantly since I decided to work for myself, instead of working for "the man."

8. 8. At 10 Apr 2008 13:56, Dan Schawbel wrote:

   @Recruiting Animal - This is the best comment I've ever seen on my blog. I like your idea of targeting.

9. 9. At 10 Apr 2008 14:02, brandonwright wrote:

   It is said wisdom is the appropriate application of knowledge. I believe value is the appropriate application of experience. It is also important to recognize that age does not correlate to experience either. I am sure we can all think of someone younger that could add value to a team because of their experiences - if applied appropriately.

10. 10. At 10 Apr 2008 14:07, jobfox wrote:

    this a great post. While I have seen ageism exist against the younger folk, usually the smart and talented can wiggle their way past it with some grace (or you can do what I did and have three kids, so people assume you're older, course that takes some pretty heavy commitment. . . I see ageism happening quite a lot with the older set. The ones who worked the same company for 20 years to get where they are and find them selves RIFed out of a job. Do you plan to do a post on that sort of ageism? I would love to read it. Nice work. Still getting the lay of the land in the blogosphere and your blog keeps popping up!

11. 11. At 10 Apr 2008 14:12, Dan Schawbel wrote:

    @jobfox - I don't have as much knowledge in that area, but may give it a try. @brandon - A lot of people are starting to gain experience at a young age. I started when I was in middle school.

12. 12. At 10 Apr 2008 14:15, brandonwright wrote:

    @jobfox My 23 year-old co-worker said I am the the smartest guy he knows. I am 29. This is also the same guy that thinks I hold the keys to knowledge kingdom because I am married (first kid, due in August). Needless to say, he keeps us entertained.

13. 13. At 10 Apr 2008 14:17, Tiffany Monhollon wrote:

    Dan - I like the way you've framed this debate. To me, the most important thing you say is "Do we really have to start are own businesses in order to prove ourselves? I don’t think companies are ready for gen-y and even more so, I think that colleges don’t prepare us for the workforce." I believe strongly in Gen Y and our ability to lead. Our education level has already surpassed that of prior generations. But there is a HUGE divide between KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM, and that is where experience comes in as key. You can study and learn and theorize until the cows come home, but until you can prove you can use what you've learned you're not going to get ahead. And that’s actually a good thing, because it forces you to learn how to get yourself ahead within the structures that exist prove (to yourself as much as to employers) that you can be an effective leader. That's what I've learned in my own career - at my first review, I had a typical millennial attutude - I do great work, have a good attitude, am a team player, where is my raise? But I didn't know how to market myself to my boss, so nothing changed, which frustrated me. But instead of leaving a great job, I took it as a challenge to prove my worth. In the next year, I grew as a professional and as a leader. And at my second review, I was promoted - twice, to a leadership position on my team that my boss created for me. I'm glad it happened this way, because this forced me to examine myself and my work life, it made me a better, more confident professional, and it helped me realize the value of creating a strategic partnership with your boss where you both help and value each other's contributions.

14. 14. At 10 Apr 2008 14:17, brandonwright wrote:

    @Dan- I think your early start is what puts you ahead of someone who began to brand themselves out of college or like me, only a few years ago. I put more stock in experience than age. Kudos to you on your success!

15. 15. At 10 Apr 2008 14:24, Dan Schawbel wrote:

    @Tiffany - thanks for sharing your story. I can't wait to show your column to the world in a few weeks in Personal Branding Magazine. @Brandon - thanks my friend.

16. 16. At 10 Apr 2008 15:33, Tiffany Monhollon wrote:

    @ Dan - Thanks! As to the issue of ageism, I strongly agree with Recruiting Animal that it is at its worst for workers 40 and up. Especially for people wanting or needing to be mobile in their careers. Young workers have no clue what it is like to be in their position, viewed as un-tech savvy, etc. In fact, research shows that the number of "mature workers" who are adapting to technology is over 70%, if my memory serves me right, so the perception that overall, mature workers don't know much about these things isn't entirely right. We get comments on our blog at work all the time about how difficult it is to find work or to re-enter the workforce after raising a family, etc. for workers around this age. So I'm sure that intensifies Gen X and early Boomer opionons about Gen Y's outcry that they are subject to ageism - from their eyes, we don't even have a clue what that means. Next month is older Americans month, so I anticipate we will begin seeing much more on this spectrum of the issue. And I believe that the issue is also complicated by the fact that workers over 40 are now considered a protected class by the ADEA - http://library.findlaw.com/2005/Apr/6/174540.html

17. 17. At 10 Apr 2008 15:52, David Sandusky wrote:

    Experience, like a brand, can suck or be great and is perceived different across communities. With cultural and resourceful differences in mind, ageism is a likely story across generation dating waaaaay back. Ageism is an excuse! I am Gen X (34) and have been fortunate to have each existing working generation report to me, use our products, services and attend my events. Attitude has not changes about the new generation entering the workforce. Like me, I have seen plenty of young executives climb the ladder fast (maybe too fast sometimes) and there is no negative thought because the leadership, results and trust for future results is there. In my case, people like me so even those with more experience recognize my experience was "better" for the responsibility. Top producer and mature beyond my years is a brand that older folks gave me! See what I am saying. As far as the other stereotypes, depends on who you hang with and what you experience.

18. 18. At 10 Apr 2008 16:43, Shawn wrote:

    I always get a kick out of the arbitrary "5 years of experience" requirement included in some job descriptions. So if you have 4.5 years, you're out of the running? Companies get waaaay to caught up on trying to screen people out instead of looking for rock star candidates. So, if you don't fit into a particular bucket, you get bounced. As a result, there are a lot of great candidates out their who get passed over for some not so great candidates.

19. 19. At 10 Apr 2008 16:47, Scott Bradley wrote:

    I agree with you completely Shawn!

20. 20. At 10 Apr 2008 16:56, Kevin K. wrote:

    Great series, Dan. It's keeping me informed and entertained. The ageism/Gen Y issue and the great comments resulting from your readers particularly sparked some reactions from this 34-yr-old GenXer. Experience and value. They can exist on their own, sure, but I believe one begets the other. Someone with lots of experience may not always deliver value expected of them. And someone with little experience but who can consistently deliver value is likely only valuable in narrow or speciality areas - not always in areas that are MOST valuable to a company or organization. If they do deliver extremely high value to the organization, that person is usually considered to the be on "the fast track," and they are almost always rewarded and recognized at superior levels to their peers - and sometimes their managers - even if the titles don't always match up. That's why sales quotas were created. the best performers - no matter what the age - will get paid the highest. But if you're not in sales or another occupation that sustains itself on performance-based compensation, what do you do? How do you measure value? This is highly subjective and open to interpretation, but here's how I see it. As an example. A 45 year-old who is disorganized, who misses deadlines and is a lousy manager - could be way more valuable than the 25 year-old who is his polar opposite. ON THE SURFACE, that doesn't seem like it could be the case. But what about when that 45 year-old needs to call on the business relationships he/she has built over many years during his career to make an important sale or partnership? Or perhaps the 45 year-old must draw on previous experience to deftly handle a major crisis with a customer, an employee or a complex business issue. What kind of value can the 25 year-old contribute in these situations? They can support and they can learn, rather than giving critical focus on the superficual things that 45 year-old doesn't do so well. Conversely, the 25 year-old certainly can contribute value with new ideas, in skill areas where there is a shortage of proficient employees and with energy and enthusiasm that goes along with wanting to learn, wanting to gain experience, wanting to progress, to succeed and prove one’s self inside an organization. I think when ageism comes into the equation against GenY, it's when respect and proper business ettiquette aren't shown to those who've got the notches in their belts. Some GenYers believe they are so smart and invincible that they can short-circuit what time and experience truly has to teach them in a career. My advice to them? Stay hungry and enthusiastic. Keep driving hard. Never compromise honesty or integrity for personal or professional gain. Learn from those around and above you - even the subtleties of how they act in a business/organizational environment and how others act towards them, both positive and negative. Look for ways to positively impact your organization through TEAM efforts. Great achievements are valued much more highly for those people who work together in harmony than for someone who achieves without the involvement and support of others. Get over the fact that when you're young, you're not going to be a VP or make six figures by age 27, unless you start your own company or become a workaholic robot on Wall Street. Accept that in an organization, you'll make incremental steps to get there. And never feel entitled or expect a raise and promotion at every review. It's just not how the world works, no matter how much value you think you're delivering. Self-perception is so often clouded by our own egos. It is only when we step back from ourselves and our own interests, when we consider the perspectives of others, can we become self-aware of our true value. Everyone needs to try this out, no matter how old they are or where they are in their careers. It can be a humbling experience. And if you want to go for true self-awareness - try a 360-degree review where everyone you work with evaluates you - above, below, sideways, even third parties - anonymously. Talk about humbling. It’s also life-changing and empowering. High achievers at any age can and should get recognized for getting great results (with bonuses, recognition and yes, raises and promos when appropriate). But the value of someone within an organization can only be truly measured according to the accumulation of consistent achievements over time. a.k.a. - your track record. Isn't it action and track record that determines the essence of our personal brand? That sounds a lot like experience to me. Take heart GenY – with patience and a humble attitude, you'll get that experience and all the rewards and recognition that go along with your achievements over time. Just like the rest of us have done before you.

21. 21. At 10 Apr 2008 17:00, Dan Schawbel wrote:

    To be radically transparent, Kevin K. is my manager at EMC. :) who just gave the last remaining light to this post

22. 22. At 10 Apr 2008 17:50, Tiffany Monhollon wrote:

    @ Kevin - I really appreciate you bringing your insight into the mix. This thoughtful and heartfelt response should be required reading for our generation. What Gen Y needs to realize is that if they are going to build a personal brand, they need to have a quality product first. That's the way the metaphor works. BMW doesn't have a great brand but a crappy product. Same for any top-of-the-line brands. And in our world today, the "product" in your personal brand equation is YOUR WORK - your track record, your performance, your attitude, your helpfulness, your communication skills, and everything else that goes into who you are at the workplace. That absolutely must be in place first before you have anything to start branding or promoting or marketing. Actually, in my academic research, I've uncovered this underlying fact as one of the main theoretical criticisms for the concept of personal branding - that so many people focus on the promotion and forget about the "product." (This doesn't mean it's a flawed concept, but that people don't always actualize it correctly because they flip-flop their emphasis.) To build a successful, quality brand, you have to BE the absolute best version of yourself before you can promote that self. In the work world, part of what that boils down to is value and experience as you describe.

23. 23. At 11 Apr 2008 15:46, Personal Brand Stereotypes #6: Ageism Puts Gen-Y in Danger : Brazen Careerist wrote:

    [...] Blog Dan Schawbel Bio Personal Brand Stereotypes #6: Ageism Puts Gen-Y in Danger [...]

24. 24. At 12 Apr 2008 11:15, Ageism At Work » Blog Archive » Personal Brand Stereotypes #6: Ageism Puts Gen-Y in Danger wrote:

    [...] Original post by Dan Schawbel [...]

25. 25. At 14 Apr 2008 14:11, Personal Brand Stereotypes #8: Choose Your Major Wisely wrote:

    [...] #6 - Ageism puts Gen-Y in danger [...]

26. 26. At 14 Apr 2008 19:01, Chris wrote:

    Dan - I have some experience here, 5 years ago, when I was 18 I ran for a Board of Education position in the school district I graduated from (6 months prior). Long story short I was elected. Also during this same I have setup an IT Consulting business which has had moderate success. Initially when I came on the board I had to overcome a great deal of ageism. But after two years I was elected Vice-President and after I won my recent bid for re-election, I was chosen as President of our Board of Education, at age 22. Here are my 2 lessons: 1) Act (and be) like you belong! - If you do you prepare, ask smart questions, and genuinely do a good job, people will notice. You might have to do more than the older people around you, but if you want to be successful you're going to be doing that anyway, right? - If you act like the negative sterotype of a Gen-Yer, lazy, always feels entitled, and provides criticism without real solutions, then you will be recognized as such. 2) Don't talk about your age, or don't do it until you have done #1. - As a kid, people always talk about what age or grade you are in. In the real world, after high school or college, people care much less. So you don't need to walk into a meeting explaining why you are so young and doing this. Walk into a meeting and do #1. If there are questions about age, the answers will go over much smoother if you have already proved to people that you are knowledgeable, qualified, and you belong. At that point a person of young age will seem more impressive. - If you walk in and highlight that you are young, people will put their defense up. In general, if you want to be taken seriously, be serious.

27. 27. At 16 Apr 2008 23:15, Diana wrote:

    @tiffany "Our education level has already surpassed that of prior generations." Do you have a source for that, LOL? As a Baby Boomer (I'm 55) I can't believe that your statement is possible! My generation received the best of a mandatory reading, writing, and arithmetic style of edu popular at the time. Perhaps a smaller % of our gen went on to college, I don't know, but my own kids (now 30&34 yrs) did not benefit from the same quality of edu that I received. I'm happy for you if you lived in a better school system. I believe u are qualified to lead but not so sure about the majority of your peers in the area where I live. @ thejenson "I wonder if non Gen Y co-workers would find that offensive?" (re: Ralph Waldo Emerson) LOL, I don't think so. They'd probably be delighted! Every modern era gen believes it has discovered Emerson, Thoreau, Wolfe, et al for the first time. But I can tell you that many Boomers LIVED the "Road Less Traveled" and are thrilled when our children embrace the search for what's "behind the curtain" of contemporary life. RE ageism...Some of us Older Employees have been using computers since their introduction and, far from being unable to learn new software, are SICK TO DEATH of software period! Ugh! So that could be some of it. I prefer to use a pencil at this point and retired from my job sitting at a computer all day to enjoy working with my hands again. @all you genX and genY'ers...I won't hold your age against you if you'll do the same for me.

28. 28. At 17 Apr 2008 00:47, rsomers wrote:

    Dan, Good commentary. I'd question the statement that 'ageism is aimed mostly at youth'. On the far side of 40 in the technology game I see it the other way. The stereotype there is "he's old, he's out of touch, he won't be able to keep up with today's trends." You're right on target that it's all about value; not about paying dues, not about waiting in line until it's your turn for a promotion. Experience is relevant only when it demonstrates a track record of providing value, lessening the perceived risk in the hiring manager's mind. Personal branding is a key element of combating ageism in either case. You can't control how young you look physically, but you can dress, speak and conduct yourself as someone with credibility. Same for me; I'd look silly trying to pass for 25, but I can demonstrate through my words and actions that I'm anything but a fading fogey out of touch with the times. This post makes it seem as though your target audience is only the young. If so, fine; but personal branding is ageless. If you write for all ages I'll come back & read because you have some great insights. And I will not append that statement with the patronizing modifier "great insights for someone your age." As you point out, it's all about the value.

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